I love a good map in a fantasy novel. I’ve spent ages poring over the Lord of the Rings maps. In fact, I love a good map in real life, as well.
Maps tell stories. We have a book called To The Ends of the Earth by Jeremy Harwood that chronicles the history of map-making and contains amazing things like this:
Close-up section of Ebstorf Mappa Mundi, Germany, c. 1300
Fictional maps tend to be more polarising. Joe Abercrombie has a really interesting stance on maps which makes a lot of sense. Many readers clearly love maps, either for practical reasons or for indulgent lore-wallowing. There are complex online tools for building your own maps, like Inkarnate.
How about you? Yes or no to fictional maps? If you’re a ‘yes’, what’s your favourite? If you’re a ‘no’, why is that?
I always suspect they're more for the author's benefit and enjoyment than the reader. Don't get me wrong, I love a map (real world or fictional) and in my younger days drew plenty. But has a map ever once assisted me even slightly in my enjoyment/comprehension of a book? Nope, not ever.
That said, they're what? Two pages? I can skip over a map as easily as I can skip over a glossary of Elvish words, so what the heck. Authors can put whatever ephemera they want into their book. But if they've done their job right in the writing, it should never be necessary.
I love maps in general, real or fantasy. The Lord of the Rings are classics of course. I like the maps in The Wheel of Time series. I actually prefer more detail than less as I frequently refer to the maps while reading the book. For me, it helps to fix myself spatially in the story.
A map is already a fiction. It's a highly symbolic rendering of real space that allows the traveler to navigate the complexity of the real. Their utility requires that they do not replicate reality, but simplify it.
Perhaps people's aversion to fictionalized maps is because it doubles up the fiction -- like a painting of a painting.
Fictional or not, there is nothing like a good map to accompany a book- particularly, if it is hand-drawn, ink on paper... I wasn't planning to add a map to my novel I am now revising since it happens in the 'real world,' but... just perhaps. You have given me an idea once again Simon, cheers to that!
Yes to all maps: up to date, historical and fictional. I can get lost in detail and it does give an extra dimension (and makes a fantasy novel more real?) but I’m not sure I refer to them once I’m reading. I have drawn sketchy maps for my own fiction to keep me on track and not send someone past a place that should be on the other side of town. Fave maps might have to be the ones of the Discworld and Ankh Morpork that my other half had on his bedroom wall when we started going out, many many years ago.
I always appreciate a fun map. If a book has one, I'll look at it. I've seen stunning maps. If a book doesn't have one, I don't miss it, but maps are great.
Something the article you side linked from Joe Abercrombie got me thinking. He raised the point about inaccurate maps, and how fans will jump on "incorrect scale," or other anomalies, and I think he's overlooked something our 21st century perspective of satellite imagery maps often forgets.
Most maps throughout history have been wildly inaccurate. When the map is drawn from the perspective of ground/sea level looking at the edge of a thing, and the cartographer isn't actually using a measuring device of some kind, the map is going to be wrong - and that's before we get to the mathematical/topographical impossibilities of spreading the surface of a sphere onto a flat surface without further distortion.
Let's not even get into the creeping errors introduced by hand-copying for millenia, and whatever errors someone preparing an engraving plate may have made after printing presses were invented.
So, enjoy the fantasy map, but, definitely don't fall into the trap of saying the map has inaccuracies, or "doesn't match book descriptions." Logically, and "realistically" the map represents the interpretation of cartographer - both the actual artist, and in "in universe" creator, not an actual "objective map."
Of course, in hi-tech sci-fi the map should be "accurate."
Also, this. I love the ancient map showing a tiny Antarctica west/southwest of Africa.
Maps of all kinds! I'm a geographer by birth and an artist in practice so map making probably would have been an ideal job but in my next life. I have loved the map in the Winnie the Pooh books since childhood and now love a book immediately if it has a map in the front.
Well.. It's a big yes from me! Maps are my thing. My whole fiction series is retrospectively written as stories around abstract art maps I've created. So the maps act as prompts, but also contexts and locations for the stories. I'm into my second series now! Visit Curious Questers if you're curious. https://ofmappery.substack.com/p/the-curious-questers-road-trip
I used to create maps for the universes I created. I spent countless monies and hours over them. At the end of the day, however, no matter how brilliant it looked in my mind I could never get it to look the way I wanted on the screen. I'm sure that's no fault of the program. Just my lack of artistry and how to properly used the tools made available to me.
All that said, one thing I find I'm good at and I enjoy more is building out family trees. Should you discuss that in the future I'll be sure to chime in.
As for maps, I will scribble some by hand on paper and on a tablet. This is usually for me so that I can have a visual representation whenever I have characters going on a journey. Not for public use. And what I'll be dabbling in soon enough, from reading enough Agatha Christie novels, is floor maps. Used for setting a scene, dropping some clues, etc. I'm really looking forward to that as it will be a series of lines (simple enough?) and labels with the occasional icon to represent different things. I suppose that is a type of map as well, right?
I've probably looked at the foldout map of Middle Earth is my 50th anniversary edition of Lord of the Rings more than any other single map ever made. I have a friend on social media in England who makes fictional maps for authors, and it looks like some wonderful fun.
Absolutely yes! I think they're usually more helpful to the writer than to the reader, but they're still so cool to study. LotR is definitely up there on my list of favorites.
I like fictional maps, mostly in fantasy where we usually have stories in other worlds or ancient periods in world history. It is almost a requirement in complex stories like The Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones.
I really dig maps in general especially the ones made of paper. My father and my grandfather both were topo-mappers for the US Geological survey so maps were always around when I grew up. In spite of that I can't think of any particular novel where maps made a huge impact on my enjoyment. Here's a shameless promo; I drew a map for my own novel which I think is pretty cool. You can see it here: https://rubenbix.substack.com/p/5-the-former-site-of-a-paleo-indian
I'm gonna just assume I get to take credit for inspiring this week's newsletter. Over the weekend I ran three sessions of a pirate based TTRPG at a local con, and had shared with Simon my early campaign planning.
The whole campaign is a loose "Eurocentric" Age of Exploration on a fictional map, set 500 years after the fall of the Holy Empire, a century after the plague killed most of the continent and led to loss of knowledge.
Mission 1: The Ancient Map of Patrocles was found and given to the Court of Éire, where it became part of the Royal Library. The map was stolen by a visiting foreign Admiral. Players had to get it back, and, of COURSE they copied it..
Mission 2: Now the players know of the "lost" "Indus" continent, they voyage to Sind, open a new trade route for saffron, and disrupt the trade monopoly of the cartel in Castille which had been the only group on the continent of Erebo still possessing maps showing Indus.
Mission 3, Castillian agents try to retrieve the map back from the players (the players are hired by an agent of the cartel to steal all the legal documents from the cartel leader blamed for the break in monopoly, at which point the players would be turned in for the theft, and charged with the murder of an opposing agent from mission 2, letting the cartel raid the player's ships, warehouses, and estates for all their maps, treaties, letters of marque, etc, while the players were tried and hung.
So, of course I had to do my world map (already "inaccurate" due to Cartesian projection), the go back and distort the map farther as the ancient map, which was even less accurate (see my other post in this thread).
Anyways, I showed Simon an in-progress version of the map after my continents were placed, sent him early mission and atlas notes, and partway through adding labels and filling in details. Thus, I claim to have inspired today's Simon newsletter.
Oh, mission 1 went well, although one PC snapped and tried to destroy the map (she's been deposed as Captain, had a grudge, and her player gave me permission to use her PC as an NPC, because when someone hands you a character which is crazy, vengeful, and TOUGH (Fiona the Dread survived being hung FOUR times and is now Fiona the Unhangable), with a personal vendetta against the player's cartel, you gotta develop that for further missions. In RPG speak, my one-off con player created the BBEG for the campaign.
Mission 2: players opened the trade route, but treated the main Rival, Francisco, with respect and honor (Francisco started the mission as a spy in the crew, using his position as Ship's Vicar to undermine Captain's authority and ferment discord along the crew). Rather than hang the traitor and his henchmen, they just tossed them in the brig and booted them off the ship in Barcelona.
Mission 3: The agent of the Castillian cartel was the betrothed of Francisco. Because they treated him so well, Lady Ariaña had no personal reason to want the crew dead. She decided that, after the player's properties had been raided, Francisco would appear alive, so the players would only face prison for theft, not hanging for murder. When the PCs discovered the duplicity, they chose negotiation with the cartel and carved up the market between them.
Overall, really reasonable, honorable and restrained action for a pirate game. My usual group probably would have killed all their rivals. Good times. Good start to a persistent convention campaign, and three players were in at least two of the three sessions. When there are close to a hundred events across 38 different RPG systems to enjoy, having returning players is nice. Means I entertained them enough to come back for more.
I'm a big no when it comes to fictional maps. I think a lot of the interest in maps was fueled by Tolkien, who drew his own. I skip over them in other people's books. For myself, at best I do a rough sketch of how things are laid out for better visualization of distances, and so on.
This is especially important when you're changing names of a location in a real world setting. I'm not particularly interested in trying to figure out how to fit the mythical location of Thunder County (from my Martiniere books) into the layout of Northeastern Oregon, other than it's north of the Wallowas, which means a big chunk is added to the real-world NE corner of the state. It's just there. The layout of the Wallowa Valley doesn't fit what I need Thunder Valley to be, so...it's just mythical, a state of mind if you have it.
My Netwalk books are closer to actual geography, especially up on Mt. Hood.
I am definitely in favor of maps, particularly if there's politics or battles involved. The LOTR map and the Narnia map are my favorites, if I'm honest, although I do like the Wheel of Time map. Years and years ago a friend of mine drew a map for a novel I'd written; it was the neatest thing. Good times...
I love a map, whether the world is real, slightly-real or complete fantasy. I struggle sometimes to orient myself to a fictional journey - we're barrelling along and then suddenly there are hills where I had thought there would be sea or somesuch - and I just need to look at a map and see how the landscape fits together.
Great question and discussion. I use maps in my two works in progress, a short story collection based in a West Virginia coal mining town over a 100-year period and a Young Adult speculative thriller that takes place in a working mine near the same town in present day. I think they help the stories' authenticity for a reader. As a writer, I couldn't keep things straight without them.
I love fictional maps. I got hooked on fictional maps as a kid when reading "Wind in the Willows" and saw the way to Toad Hall, The Badger's Den, Ratty's Bungalow, etc.
Thank you for this trip down memory lane! :) When I wrote my first fantasy "novels" I drew lots of maps of my fictional continent. Later I discovered the historic meaning of maps as the Epsdorfer Map you mentioned in this newsletter. By now I am more willing to write about them and the men an women who made them in former times than draw my own.
Yes, I love a good map. In something like Wheel of Time I even flip back to them fairly regularly to check where things are at. And as others have said, I do draw maps, floor plans, schematics and so on when I’m writing, to keep things straight in my story, though these will probably not be included in final publication.
Maps are so good not only for pleasing the eye, but for having soooo much more context to alot of things. For example the distance beetween two regions or traveling routes.
"Fictional maps tend to be more polarising." How so? 🤔 Like in the sense that fans tend to argue about how well it was made in accuracy to the world descriptions or in how it does not match their mental vision of how the world looks? Or something else entirely?
When Tolkien included his map, it was a piece of eccentricity. Today it is a marker of genre and it screams "worldbuilding!" And I'm with Abercrombie on this. I don't like worldbuilding for worldbuilding's sake. And I don't like it in Tolkien any better than I like it in anyone else.
So I suppose if you are writing a worldbuilding book with a generic pro-forma story, yes, include a map, because that makes it easy for me to avoid your book. But if you are writing an original and engaging story with just enough worldbuilding to set the stage for the action, leave out the map or I will probably skip your book.
I always suspect they're more for the author's benefit and enjoyment than the reader. Don't get me wrong, I love a map (real world or fictional) and in my younger days drew plenty. But has a map ever once assisted me even slightly in my enjoyment/comprehension of a book? Nope, not ever.
That said, they're what? Two pages? I can skip over a map as easily as I can skip over a glossary of Elvish words, so what the heck. Authors can put whatever ephemera they want into their book. But if they've done their job right in the writing, it should never be necessary.
I love maps in general, real or fantasy. The Lord of the Rings are classics of course. I like the maps in The Wheel of Time series. I actually prefer more detail than less as I frequently refer to the maps while reading the book. For me, it helps to fix myself spatially in the story.
A map is already a fiction. It's a highly symbolic rendering of real space that allows the traveler to navigate the complexity of the real. Their utility requires that they do not replicate reality, but simplify it.
Perhaps people's aversion to fictionalized maps is because it doubles up the fiction -- like a painting of a painting.
Fictional or not, there is nothing like a good map to accompany a book- particularly, if it is hand-drawn, ink on paper... I wasn't planning to add a map to my novel I am now revising since it happens in the 'real world,' but... just perhaps. You have given me an idea once again Simon, cheers to that!
I love maps in fantasy epics. As an author, I try to illustrate my map early on. And I then rely on it as a tool throughout the rest of the series.
Yes to all maps: up to date, historical and fictional. I can get lost in detail and it does give an extra dimension (and makes a fantasy novel more real?) but I’m not sure I refer to them once I’m reading. I have drawn sketchy maps for my own fiction to keep me on track and not send someone past a place that should be on the other side of town. Fave maps might have to be the ones of the Discworld and Ankh Morpork that my other half had on his bedroom wall when we started going out, many many years ago.
I always appreciate a fun map. If a book has one, I'll look at it. I've seen stunning maps. If a book doesn't have one, I don't miss it, but maps are great.
Something the article you side linked from Joe Abercrombie got me thinking. He raised the point about inaccurate maps, and how fans will jump on "incorrect scale," or other anomalies, and I think he's overlooked something our 21st century perspective of satellite imagery maps often forgets.
Most maps throughout history have been wildly inaccurate. When the map is drawn from the perspective of ground/sea level looking at the edge of a thing, and the cartographer isn't actually using a measuring device of some kind, the map is going to be wrong - and that's before we get to the mathematical/topographical impossibilities of spreading the surface of a sphere onto a flat surface without further distortion.
Let's not even get into the creeping errors introduced by hand-copying for millenia, and whatever errors someone preparing an engraving plate may have made after printing presses were invented.
So, enjoy the fantasy map, but, definitely don't fall into the trap of saying the map has inaccuracies, or "doesn't match book descriptions." Logically, and "realistically" the map represents the interpretation of cartographer - both the actual artist, and in "in universe" creator, not an actual "objective map."
Of course, in hi-tech sci-fi the map should be "accurate."
Also, this. I love the ancient map showing a tiny Antarctica west/southwest of Africa.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps
Maps of all kinds! I'm a geographer by birth and an artist in practice so map making probably would have been an ideal job but in my next life. I have loved the map in the Winnie the Pooh books since childhood and now love a book immediately if it has a map in the front.
Well.. It's a big yes from me! Maps are my thing. My whole fiction series is retrospectively written as stories around abstract art maps I've created. So the maps act as prompts, but also contexts and locations for the stories. I'm into my second series now! Visit Curious Questers if you're curious. https://ofmappery.substack.com/p/the-curious-questers-road-trip
I used to create maps for the universes I created. I spent countless monies and hours over them. At the end of the day, however, no matter how brilliant it looked in my mind I could never get it to look the way I wanted on the screen. I'm sure that's no fault of the program. Just my lack of artistry and how to properly used the tools made available to me.
All that said, one thing I find I'm good at and I enjoy more is building out family trees. Should you discuss that in the future I'll be sure to chime in.
As for maps, I will scribble some by hand on paper and on a tablet. This is usually for me so that I can have a visual representation whenever I have characters going on a journey. Not for public use. And what I'll be dabbling in soon enough, from reading enough Agatha Christie novels, is floor maps. Used for setting a scene, dropping some clues, etc. I'm really looking forward to that as it will be a series of lines (simple enough?) and labels with the occasional icon to represent different things. I suppose that is a type of map as well, right?
I've probably looked at the foldout map of Middle Earth is my 50th anniversary edition of Lord of the Rings more than any other single map ever made. I have a friend on social media in England who makes fictional maps for authors, and it looks like some wonderful fun.
Absolutely yes! I think they're usually more helpful to the writer than to the reader, but they're still so cool to study. LotR is definitely up there on my list of favorites.
I like fictional maps, mostly in fantasy where we usually have stories in other worlds or ancient periods in world history. It is almost a requirement in complex stories like The Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones.
Definitely enjoy a good map. Readers are free to enjoy or ignore, without detracting from their enjoyment of a book.
I really dig maps in general especially the ones made of paper. My father and my grandfather both were topo-mappers for the US Geological survey so maps were always around when I grew up. In spite of that I can't think of any particular novel where maps made a huge impact on my enjoyment. Here's a shameless promo; I drew a map for my own novel which I think is pretty cool. You can see it here: https://rubenbix.substack.com/p/5-the-former-site-of-a-paleo-indian
I'm gonna just assume I get to take credit for inspiring this week's newsletter. Over the weekend I ran three sessions of a pirate based TTRPG at a local con, and had shared with Simon my early campaign planning.
The whole campaign is a loose "Eurocentric" Age of Exploration on a fictional map, set 500 years after the fall of the Holy Empire, a century after the plague killed most of the continent and led to loss of knowledge.
Mission 1: The Ancient Map of Patrocles was found and given to the Court of Éire, where it became part of the Royal Library. The map was stolen by a visiting foreign Admiral. Players had to get it back, and, of COURSE they copied it..
Mission 2: Now the players know of the "lost" "Indus" continent, they voyage to Sind, open a new trade route for saffron, and disrupt the trade monopoly of the cartel in Castille which had been the only group on the continent of Erebo still possessing maps showing Indus.
Mission 3, Castillian agents try to retrieve the map back from the players (the players are hired by an agent of the cartel to steal all the legal documents from the cartel leader blamed for the break in monopoly, at which point the players would be turned in for the theft, and charged with the murder of an opposing agent from mission 2, letting the cartel raid the player's ships, warehouses, and estates for all their maps, treaties, letters of marque, etc, while the players were tried and hung.
So, of course I had to do my world map (already "inaccurate" due to Cartesian projection), the go back and distort the map farther as the ancient map, which was even less accurate (see my other post in this thread).
Anyways, I showed Simon an in-progress version of the map after my continents were placed, sent him early mission and atlas notes, and partway through adding labels and filling in details. Thus, I claim to have inspired today's Simon newsletter.
Oh, mission 1 went well, although one PC snapped and tried to destroy the map (she's been deposed as Captain, had a grudge, and her player gave me permission to use her PC as an NPC, because when someone hands you a character which is crazy, vengeful, and TOUGH (Fiona the Dread survived being hung FOUR times and is now Fiona the Unhangable), with a personal vendetta against the player's cartel, you gotta develop that for further missions. In RPG speak, my one-off con player created the BBEG for the campaign.
Mission 2: players opened the trade route, but treated the main Rival, Francisco, with respect and honor (Francisco started the mission as a spy in the crew, using his position as Ship's Vicar to undermine Captain's authority and ferment discord along the crew). Rather than hang the traitor and his henchmen, they just tossed them in the brig and booted them off the ship in Barcelona.
Mission 3: The agent of the Castillian cartel was the betrothed of Francisco. Because they treated him so well, Lady Ariaña had no personal reason to want the crew dead. She decided that, after the player's properties had been raided, Francisco would appear alive, so the players would only face prison for theft, not hanging for murder. When the PCs discovered the duplicity, they chose negotiation with the cartel and carved up the market between them.
Overall, really reasonable, honorable and restrained action for a pirate game. My usual group probably would have killed all their rivals. Good times. Good start to a persistent convention campaign, and three players were in at least two of the three sessions. When there are close to a hundred events across 38 different RPG systems to enjoy, having returning players is nice. Means I entertained them enough to come back for more.
I'm a big no when it comes to fictional maps. I think a lot of the interest in maps was fueled by Tolkien, who drew his own. I skip over them in other people's books. For myself, at best I do a rough sketch of how things are laid out for better visualization of distances, and so on.
This is especially important when you're changing names of a location in a real world setting. I'm not particularly interested in trying to figure out how to fit the mythical location of Thunder County (from my Martiniere books) into the layout of Northeastern Oregon, other than it's north of the Wallowas, which means a big chunk is added to the real-world NE corner of the state. It's just there. The layout of the Wallowa Valley doesn't fit what I need Thunder Valley to be, so...it's just mythical, a state of mind if you have it.
My Netwalk books are closer to actual geography, especially up on Mt. Hood.
I am definitely in favor of maps, particularly if there's politics or battles involved. The LOTR map and the Narnia map are my favorites, if I'm honest, although I do like the Wheel of Time map. Years and years ago a friend of mine drew a map for a novel I'd written; it was the neatest thing. Good times...
Maps? Yes, of course. I use maps and diagrams for myself all the time. Tolkien's maps were very useful.
I love a map, whether the world is real, slightly-real or complete fantasy. I struggle sometimes to orient myself to a fictional journey - we're barrelling along and then suddenly there are hills where I had thought there would be sea or somesuch - and I just need to look at a map and see how the landscape fits together.
Great question and discussion. I use maps in my two works in progress, a short story collection based in a West Virginia coal mining town over a 100-year period and a Young Adult speculative thriller that takes place in a working mine near the same town in present day. I think they help the stories' authenticity for a reader. As a writer, I couldn't keep things straight without them.
They're useful for connecting the dots in the plot. But most of us would probably need to outsource the construction of them to a cartographer.
I like maps. They help me to understand what's going on in the story, and they're fun!
I love fictional maps. I got hooked on fictional maps as a kid when reading "Wind in the Willows" and saw the way to Toad Hall, The Badger's Den, Ratty's Bungalow, etc.
Thank you for this trip down memory lane! :) When I wrote my first fantasy "novels" I drew lots of maps of my fictional continent. Later I discovered the historic meaning of maps as the Epsdorfer Map you mentioned in this newsletter. By now I am more willing to write about them and the men an women who made them in former times than draw my own.
Yes for me as well, as if you couldn’t tell: https://tranithargan.substack.com/p/maps
Yes, I love a good map. In something like Wheel of Time I even flip back to them fairly regularly to check where things are at. And as others have said, I do draw maps, floor plans, schematics and so on when I’m writing, to keep things straight in my story, though these will probably not be included in final publication.
Maps are so good not only for pleasing the eye, but for having soooo much more context to alot of things. For example the distance beetween two regions or traveling routes.
"Fictional maps tend to be more polarising." How so? 🤔 Like in the sense that fans tend to argue about how well it was made in accuracy to the world descriptions or in how it does not match their mental vision of how the world looks? Or something else entirely?
Oh, that's an interesting idea.
No to fictional maps.
When Tolkien included his map, it was a piece of eccentricity. Today it is a marker of genre and it screams "worldbuilding!" And I'm with Abercrombie on this. I don't like worldbuilding for worldbuilding's sake. And I don't like it in Tolkien any better than I like it in anyone else.
So I suppose if you are writing a worldbuilding book with a generic pro-forma story, yes, include a map, because that makes it easy for me to avoid your book. But if you are writing an original and engaging story with just enough worldbuilding to set the stage for the action, leave out the map or I will probably skip your book.