I’m working on a longer piece at the moment about the relationship between writer and reader, specifically in the context of online serials.
The question that I’ve been thinking about a lot is: should writers pay attention to reader feedback? Should they be swayed by reader comments and responses? Is that a cool feature of writing and publishing online, or a bug? When does a collaborative discussion become little more than fan service?
Let me know what you think: if you’re a writer, do you listen to what your readers tell you, and adapt accordingly, or do you stick firmly to your original plan? If you’re a reader, do you leave comments? Would you even want a writer to alter their plans based on something you’d said?
I’m of the firm belief that readers (and I include myself) don’t actually really know what we want, and therefore pandering to us too much actually leads to the detriment of the story (see: Star Wars, Marvel etc.).
Absolutely agree with that. There's a reading-between-the-lines that's needed with any kind of feedback, whether it's readers or customers or users or anything else. A reader can only respond to the information they have, in the form of the words already published. They don't know what's coming up, what has been percolating for months or years in the author's mind.
Responding and pivoting directly in response to that feedback is a bad idea, agreed. But there's still value in that feedback, as a kind of barometer.
Interesting take. Puts me in mind of Steve Jobs’ ethos of giving us what we didn’t even know we wanted and designing it so well we can’t live without it. (Or so we think.)
I always ask my readers if there was something that “took you out” of the story. There is no debate in that. If it took them out that is a signal to me to have more clarity in my writing. Making sure there is not a continuity error. But if a reader said, “The protagonist should do this or that, etc” I ignore those. Because that’s their story not mine. I stick to my story but I listen for feedback to make sure I’m always making it a better experience and entertaining for my readers. My work is for the enjoyment of my readers so I want it to be the best it can be. Edit without mercy!!! Kill your darlings!!!
If multiple readers make the same or similar comments, or if the comments just make sense, the writer should at least consider their views. If it's just one reader making a comment, it can probably be ignored. And sometimes, reader comments can lead to a sequel or spin-off story instead of redirecting the main one.
As a reader, I wouldn't want the author to alter the path of their story for me. The excitement comes from not knowing what's going to happen next. If an author changed the path of their narrative because I wanted it to go a certain way, I think it would lose some of that magic.
Sure, I'd feel satisfied with the way the story is going, but it won't sparkle as much as going down a path I've never been down before and don't know where it will lead me.
I think having a singular voice - or, at least, a defined voice - is vital to a compelling story. It's that very particular point of view that makes a story worth reading in the first place, and gives it meaning beyond simply a sequence of Things That Happen.
I wouldnt want the pilot of the plane asking me how to land it, and i think the same goes for story. By opening the book/starting the serial/returning each week, the reader is putting a level of trust in the writer to get them to the end of the journey. :)
True! A pilot asking us how to land is a dangerous question. Nevertheless, I can understand an author who wants to involve the reader even more in the process if it applies. Some readers want an extra behind-the-scenes look at how things are crafted, while others just want to enjoy the final piece in peace. It really depends on the relationship and bond an author has built with their audience. Their level of trust and openness in sharing the process and sometimes those moments of doubts and deserts in writing.
Personally, I listen to the feedback to some extent, it is always good to know when you hooked them and when they lost interest. I tend to hold on to my gut feeling all along and adjust when needed. Letting that feedback sink in, but not overpower me.
I think having a couple trusted beta readers is great for this! A writing group, writing friends, etc. As for the behind the scenes, this is true and I like sharing these things with readers, but i have to do it after the thing is made. When I'm writing, i'm still working things out and need to find my way. For me, if I open the office door to everyone while I'm actively writing, i can get really lost in the weeds trying to make everyone happy and forget what it was I was trying to acomplish by telling the story in the first place!
Indeed. If it's too early and you are not fully infused in it, it is easy to get lost in so many opinions. I do the same and its a balance I guess. That alone time is quite precious though!
This may be a perpetually online conversation that’s happening, but on different social media platforms (TikTok and Threads specifically), there have been a rash of readers making demands of authors regarding what content they should and should not include in their books, whether applied broadly or addressed to specific authors. This runs the gamut from not using certain words to how an author markets, and it’s frustrating. This is more than likely a vocal minority, but it’s still frustrating nonetheless to come across these posts in spaces “authors aren’t allowed to be in” yet being spoken directly to and expected to effect that “advice.” A common response authors get when begging not to be tagged in more negative reviews is something to the effect of “if you can’t take the criticism, how are you going to get better?” And this goes back to authors being pulled kicking and screaming into reader spaces (reviews), being expected to remain silent, and take away feedback from a random person on the internet. The access to authors, for some, has started to swing too far.
That’s not to say authors can’t pick up feedback in their reviews and apply it to future books. That’s entirely their prerogative to do. It’s the demands and the expectation that we comply that’s exhausting. Even in serial form, that story is still YOURS. The chapter that you post is then your readers’ to read and react to, but like TV of old, a poor response to an episode or a viewer’s response to a character doing something they don’t like doesn’t alter the course of the story. Readers are passive participants even in serial format. If a writer wants to alter their story based on reader feedback, again, their prerogative. But that story isn’t bespoke to them. It’s bespoke to YOU and they get the benefit of enjoying it too.
That's interesting! I've not encountered that kind of reader (fortunately). My experiences with readers have always been very positive and rewarding. There's been speculation of where a story is going, but never in the framing of actual demands.
No writer worth his or her salt should bother with, read or listen to feedback on their writing, unless they know and respect the person giving it. Yes, all writers need and should value professional, constructive criticism. That is simply not going to be found from random readers' feedback, no matter how well meant.
But, who, in their right mind, would welcome a stranger invited into their house to criticise the way they lived, furnished the place, or shared their life with? You'd throw them out instantly.
"Loved your book, Mr Crichton, but why don't you consider historical fiction without the science fiction crap?"
I've always thought that with critics, as well: the opinion of a random critic doesn't mean much to me. Whereas a critic I've followed for years, and have a good sense of their tastes and personality, is far more useful. Mark Kermode, for example, is a film critic I always pay attention to - I don't always agree with him, but because I know what HE prioritises in a good film, I can translate his opinion to my own tastes.
Same goes for readers, as you've described. The more I know a reader, the more useful their comments become.
I should have added that I always enjoy Simon's wide-ranging debates on writers and writing. It's a lonely calling, and one where the craft can always be honed to make it more accessible for the benefit of all. Sharing experiences between other writers, I find, valuable.
Readers and reading is, I believe, an entirely different matter. As a reader I have tastes that preclude many genres. Simply can't abide some of them. That, of course, is my problem.
It also strikes me, as a new and enthusiastic listener to well narrated audiobooks, that not all readers perhaps have the ability to hear the voices and nuances the writer might have had in mind. I know I have been surprised how certain novels have come alive for me, in audiobook form. In other words, I need to brush up on the way I read other people's work.
That's interesting! I've not got on with audiobooks yet, as I find it very difficult to listen to something without DOING something else - at which point I lose concentration. Not a problem with non-fiction radio or podcasts, as I can dip in and out slightly without losing my way. Fiction requires proper concentration, though, and my brain doesn't seem well-designed for that.
My hyperactive, multi-tasking, younger friends also find that they invariably do something else as they listen to audiobooks. I have reached an advanced age where I am quite content to while away many hours each day reading a book or scouring YouTube for a free audible offering.
I would make two further points: many audiobooks are rushed jobs, poorly narrated. Many I've tried I discard in minutes. But I was hooked, a few years back, by two brilliant narrators. The first, Gareth Armstrong, does an incredible job for the Maigret novels; Sean Barrett, my second narrating star, brings alive for me the brilliant Mick Herron novels featuring Jackson Lamb, and also does justice to Jo Nesbo's work, especially with 'The Son'. Give them a go?
Unlike your household furnishings, writing as being discussed here, is for public consumption. There's a whole profession of writing critics. There are entire university degrees devoted to writing analysis.
Of course, you are right, but I would argue that writing is such a human, individual process that seeking a cross-section of advice about your writing, without permitting the providers with a highly detailed analysis of your entire life, coupled with an explanation of your tastes and literary and commercial aspirations will only confuse not illuminate.
However, one to one advice, over a lengthy period, weeks, not hours, could certainly be helpful, provided you got on with the person giving it, and he or she was a truly independent publishing expert steeped in examining drafts.
Hmm. That's not how the real world of publishing works, nor, I most professional writers.
On Substack, it would be rare to see people giving negative feedback, let alone plot suggestions. I think most people only comment if they have something encouraging to say. Otherwise they keep their reactions to themselves. It's not really an environment for giving a critique of the person's writing skills.
As a writer and book editor for over twenty years, and having helped scores of aspiring writers achieve success, I can only say that the 'real world of publishing' you describe is not one I have encountered. We shall have to agree to disagree.
And who mentioned 'plot suggestions' or 'negative feedback'? Certainly not me. Not my style. Never helpful.
All of my comments are within the context of Simon's post.
I still hold that no reader needs or wants intimate and life time information about a writer so as to be able to form an opinion about a writer's efforts.
As a writer, you have to stick to the thing that you mean to say, but you also have to adapt the way that you say it to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, or, at least, the audience you are interested in reaching. So, yes, its is worth listening to reader feedback as it touches the how, but not as it touches the what.
I listen to my first readers, but only on very specific things. For example, I might say, ‘Did you like this particular character?’ or ‘Did their decision to do whatever seem consistent you you?’ or even ‘Did you see such and such coming?’ But as for the more general thing and my the larger readership? You can’t really. For everyone that thinks one thing there’ll be someone passionately advocating for the opposite. You can’t dilute your own vision by trying to please everyone.
Yeah, the narrative whiplash would be painful and confusing if we tried to please every reader. And as has been pointed out elsewhere, readers don't necessarily know what's best for the story OR for them, because they're not holding all the cards.
I sometimes ask readers to rate which topic they'd rather hear about, from a list I've put together (i.e., the choice they have isn't infinite, rather a selection of things I've said I'm happy to write about). And sometimes if I've had specific positive feedback (e.g., they loved the title, or found a topic particularly interesting) I ask them to dig into that a little more so that I can try to embody that in future posts. But I don't ever ask them for specific direction in fiction pieces, and I don't ever change my plan according to feedback (except for looking back over what seems to have resonated, from the data, and use that to plan the next quarter). Hope that makes sense!
This is something I do think about, especially now as I'm actually releasing chapters of my latest serial DEPARTURES long before I have the novel complete and everything figured out. I agree with what M.E. Rothwell said below - as readers it's not our job to know what we want when we want it. The act of reading is all about discovery and surprise. From a writer's perspective, I love getting the immediate feedback as I drop new chapters. While Substack is a very friendly place and no one's going to be critical in a comment, you still can judge how well it's been received by the volume of comments and the energy and specificity within them. I find it's just enough of a barometric reading for me to know what elements and themes are resonating with my readers so I can lean into them a bit more. Thanks for the great question, Simon!
I write the stories that come to me and I wouldn’t be interested in writing something just because a reader wanted the story to go a certain way. As a reader, I want no input. I want the delight of following a writer’s story through all of its surprises and twists.
This is fascinating (and others have said similarly). I wonder if this touches upon why AI-generated writing and art remains generally unappealing? As a reader we want to be surprised and have that connection with a writer, and be surprised by their point of view. It's in discovering that which we didn't even know we wanted.
These are all such thoughtful comments! Dare I say they illustrate the point that reader feedback can be invaluable. I think of reader comments as an ongoing, evolving workshop — especially the readers here who are mostly writers themselves. Comments are often specific and constructive, which I’ve used to a) improve my readers’ experience and b) give them more of what they enjoy the most. I’m with the commenter who said feedback helps with the how, but not the what.
That is an interesting quirk, actually: that readers here tend to also be writers. Plus readers of serial fiction are by necessity somewhat interested in the nuts and bolts of how a story is told - otherwise they'd just stick with buying books the normal way.
I'm generalising a bit, but I'd wager that the particular readers who happen to find their way to my extremely niche online serial are going to give a particular type of feedback, which may well be more useful than a casual paperback reader's.
As a reader, I wouldn't want a writer to alter their story for me... the point is that the writer probably has a plan I haven't considered and part of the fun is finding out what that plan is... I might not agree with it in the end, but I wouldn't want to write the story myself (even if they kill off a favourite character *sob*)--the fun of being a reader is not having control and not knowing where things are going.
As a writer, I would stick to my own plan, but I would consider feedback if it was apparent something needed further explanation, clarification or develoment, or if readers wanted to see more of a particular character or element of setting/world building etc. and it wouldn't hurt the overall plot/vision to cater to that.
There's an element there which I hadn't really considered: that sensation, as a reader, of not being in control. There's an inherent risk to allowing yourself to be enveloped by someone else's story. A friction and tension. The same thrill of going on a rollercoaster, where there's danger - but you also know that it's 99% sure to be safe. Characters dying in a book isn't the same as people you know dying in real life. But for that moment, when you're in it, surrounded by it, it can feel equivalent.
And yeah - the moment the reader feels able to influence the outcome, that danger disappears, because they regain control.
(there are, of course, types of storytelling where the 'reader' DOES have control, be it interactive fiction, 'choose your own adventure' or...video games. But those are designed specifically with that structure from the start)
There's a far broader take on this: How much attention should literary agents and publishers pay to readers' tastes and opinions? The answer seems obvious, yet most books fail to make a profit. Second-guessing is difficult, but being different is risky. I think the same applies to serial fiction that's prepared in advance. But if you're writing on the fly, testing your audience's preferences as you go, then it's a different author journey. It becomes more about agility than guesswork, at the potential expense of being true to the story you originally devised in your head. Audiences can be fickle, and a small opinionated faction might drive you into a plot or character alleyway you don't want to be in and/or can't write your way out of, whilst alienating a silent but attentive majority. But perhaps success depends on the writers psychology, the old split between pantser and plotter, the known and the deep.
Deadpool & Wolverine was awesome. So no, fan service is not always a bad thing. It is, like most things, a totally legitimate ingredient in fiction, depending on what it your fiction is aiming to do. And that's the question you need to answer before indulging yourself.
As to paying attention to reader feedback, again it depends. Pandering is out, writing for an audience instead of writing for yourself is out, taking onboard constructive criticism and removing howlers they've spotted is definitely out. Taking a particular direction because readers suggested it, even if you like their idea, is sketchy, because readers are readers, not collaborators. But pay attention by all means, just know when to heed it and when to not.
From a writer's perspective, I see three tiers to this relationship:
1) Critique group: fellow authors with broad experience and a nuanced eye, drilling down on a scene to both praise, eviscerate and everything in between.
2) Beta readers: absorbing a whole novel, setting it within a genre context and their own experience - personal and literary. Providing structural and plot opinions, but especially character impressions.
3) Commercial readership: feeding off the cultural and marketing contexts, finding relevance, finding their tribe, feeling a connection with the world you've built and the characters you've brought to life. Wanting to be with you on the journey you've set out on. Or not - and telling the world why.
I think it depends on how far off track they want to go. I did listen to people when they said that X character was far more appealing than the two main characters. They were right and that X character was developed more and became an intrical part of the future world.
I've avoided this quandary by only publishing short stories.
However, I finally started on a serial this month, so I'll see what happens. I hope I'll be able to stick with my original vision. You can't please everybody, after all.
I love it when readers comment and, unlike many, I love it when they make suggestions. Some of my favourite writing has been done by authors cooperating, and some of my funnest writing has been done in reaction to readers.
I write what I want to read. And I believe my writing has improved because I stopped listening to strangers and started listening to myself when it comes to my work. The only time I take consideration of criticism about my work is when I actively seek it out with alpha, beta, or gamma readers. But if it’s a random stranger sharing their two cents? Means nothing to me. You can’t please everyone so why not focus on pleasing myself?
My serials are finished products that have been beta-battle tested. I approach readers as an audience looking to be entertained. There’s nothing wrong with serializing on the go, if you communicate that, but I think readers should know they’re handling unfinished goods. Some people will love that, others will be turned off by a work that isn’t ready.
Oh yeah, it's important to make sure people know what they're getting into. For me, the whole point is having the story form up in public, and that's specifically part of the appeal to readers as well.
It's the same with a television show: you know going in that they haven't produced every episode, and that there's an inherent risk to engaging with it. But that's also part of the enjoyment, especially when everything aligns.
If you ask for feedback, don't respond to what somebody says, but to how it makes you feel. Is there something in your gut that tells you, "damn it. I don't like it, but they're right"?
I love reader comments. I learn a lot from them, like what works and what readers enjoy. I am fortunate to have a few insightful, detailed commentators. I also learn what doesn't work from their silence and lack of likes. Obviously, stand-alone stories and serials are different animals.
I found reader comments especially valuable when I serialized my second Novella on Substack as I wrote it. I solicited and got helpful comments and suggestions, and even helpful corrections like the difference between one and two-humped camels. Plus nautical corrections from a former Navy man and another "historical fiction" writer (the story spent a lot of time on sailing ships in the 18th century.) I am doing the same with the third book in the series which is in progress now.
I take reader suggestions into consideration and find any corrections very helpful. But I stick to my vision for the story. I don't change plot lines, mostly just details. Or some dialog that seems out of character. Which is what the comments usually are about. No one has ever suggested I change the storyline. I think readers would rather let me do the work, there. 🤣
For me, having readers provide a kind of temperature gauge during the writing process is invaluable. It's an indicator as to whether I'm on track. I can't imagine writing an entire novel in private, not knowing if it's any good, and only finding out at the end of that process, after several drafts, edits, and rejections.
The excitement is in the creation, for me, and I really enjoy having people along for the ride. I think that's a big part of it for them, too. It's part of what makes a serial unique and exciting, rather than just a very slow, gated book.
I don't write serialized fiction so I'll answer this in terms of someone who writes novels that are released in whole. Personally, I like to get reader feedback. In my current work in progress, Electromagnetic Assault, I have it out to 15 beta readers, 4 of which are multi-published authors. Yes, that will be a lot of feedback to deal with!
My attitude toward reader feedback is to NEVER take anything personally. It's just feedback from a single person. What I look for when I get feedback are two things:
1. Am I getting the same feedback from multiple people? If yes, then it's probably an issue I should deal with.
2. Do I agree with the feedback and feel a change is required? If feedback hits both of these criteria, I usually deal with it. If it hits neither, then I usually don't act on it.
One piece of writing advice I read years ago was that if a reader points out an issue, then it's likely a problem, however, don't follow their advice on how to fix the issue. That's up to the writer or the writer working with a professional editor. At the end of the day, it's my story told my way and not a story written by a committee, no matter how well meaning their feedback. Not every reader will love my work and that's OK.
Yeah, any reader who isn't also a writer (or someone who has studied literature, or is a critic, etc) is likely to notice that SOMETHING is wrong, but it's going to be difficult to analyse and explain what it is. Your point about listening to the problem, but not the suggested advice/solution is spot on.
A good critic (or editor) isn't paid to have an opinion: they're paid to be able to EXPLAIN that opinion, in a way that is useful for other people.
I think writers should work to surprise readers by subverting expectations/genre conventions when they can, but that it's absolutely fine to listen to reader feedback and make slight adjustments as you progress further into a series, as long as it makes sense for the story. I also think it's very hard to stick to an original plan for a story, and that getting down into the nitty-gritty of writing almost always leads to the story evolving in ways you would not expect. That's part of the fun of writing!
Fan service, done right and in moderation, can be great. I thought D&W stuck the landing on fan service, especially as someone who grew up with all those 20th Century Fox Marvel movies.
Yeah, I was mostly very pleased with D&W. It's incredibly silly, but there's only really one totally superfluous (if excellent) cameo. The rest of the revived characters all have a story or character reason to be there (even if the reason is primarily "this will be funny").
Feedback is feedback, whether it comes from readers, workshops, writer groups, or friends. I think it's worth evaluating it individually regardless of where it comes from.
I think fan service can be fun. I enjoyed Deadpool and Wolverine on many levels, including as a reminder that this stuff is supposed to be fun.
I’m sure I recall TV series where a minor character was made more prominent because of audience feedback but as a writer I’d probably only go that way if I already wanted to boost that character but had been afraid I was being self-indulgent. I would be wary of specific feedback because what if I think that’s a better idea than where I was originally taking the story? I could use the idea, credit the reader and that might be nice for them, but is it still my story? Would that open others up to suggesting twists etc and would they be offended if you didn’t use them? Very interesting thread though Simon, thanks for asking the question.
I think relinquishing credit to readers would be a slipper slope.
I did have a character in my first serial who was supposed to be in a couple of chapters. I really enjoyed writing him, and then readers responded really well - the next thing I knew, he was the second lead. In that instance it was an inkling I already had, that I wanted to keep him around, and the reader response helped to confirm what I was already thinking.
As a playwright I usually have talkbacks following readings and I always listen closely. Obviously you don’t respond to everything. Only if it’s meaningful or if you hear the same issue a number of times but I consider it useful.
It depends on the piece, the amount of confidence you have about it, and who is critiquing it. I've blithely ignored feedback about a story, submitted it, and had it published. I've had critiques that just show the person wasn't reading attentively. I've had feedback that pointed out things which hadn't occurred to me. This last case has sometimes led to a better version. In general, I listen to everyone because even when I don't agree, it gives me an inkling of what readers are thinking.
If writers are creating a product that they need to succeed in the market, then they should understand that market and then ensure they have market-fit. This doesn't mean taking readers' advice, but tracking metrics and "provoking" feedback (in the form of engagement metrics, not advice), then analyze that data as a professional product designer whose product happens to be writing.
If writers are creating art, then be like Rick Rubin: ignore your audience. Don't listen to them. Their user experience is better for you writing what you want to write, what you enjoy, what you want to make. It'll just be harder finding the audience.
I didn't really mean direct "you should do it like this" comments. More the natural theorising that readers do while they're going through a story. The endless "what ifs".
Hmm, Chuck.P does exactly that, a regular highlight of his Substack, and it's the most valuable and fascination feedback, as well as providing solid craft insights for any writer.
Another hmm, do people really think 'what if' a lot when reading, do they redo plots or characters in their head, thus constantly taking themselves out of the story? I suspect that what you're calling natural theorizing is the ordinary like and dislike reactions to a story that already exists. But maybe you read differently!
I’m of the firm belief that readers (and I include myself) don’t actually really know what we want, and therefore pandering to us too much actually leads to the detriment of the story (see: Star Wars, Marvel etc.).
Absolutely agree with that. There's a reading-between-the-lines that's needed with any kind of feedback, whether it's readers or customers or users or anything else. A reader can only respond to the information they have, in the form of the words already published. They don't know what's coming up, what has been percolating for months or years in the author's mind.
Responding and pivoting directly in response to that feedback is a bad idea, agreed. But there's still value in that feedback, as a kind of barometer.
Interesting take. Puts me in mind of Steve Jobs’ ethos of giving us what we didn’t even know we wanted and designing it so well we can’t live without it. (Or so we think.)
I always ask my readers if there was something that “took you out” of the story. There is no debate in that. If it took them out that is a signal to me to have more clarity in my writing. Making sure there is not a continuity error. But if a reader said, “The protagonist should do this or that, etc” I ignore those. Because that’s their story not mine. I stick to my story but I listen for feedback to make sure I’m always making it a better experience and entertaining for my readers. My work is for the enjoyment of my readers so I want it to be the best it can be. Edit without mercy!!! Kill your darlings!!!
I like this - using readers as a barometer of sorts; a measure of your efforts.
Thanks Simon! Great discussion!
That's a really smart question to ask, and would help improve your future efforts.
Other generic questions might be whether there was too much or too little of X or Y, or which character are you enjoying.
But, yes, the story itself is always the writer's. Whether or not it's well told is up to the readers to decide, but it's not theirs to change.
You said it exactly right!
“Whether or not it's well told is up to the readers to decide, but it's not their's to change.” I couldn’t agree more! 100%!!
Thank you Caz! I appreciate your support and taking the time to read and comment. 😊
If multiple readers make the same or similar comments, or if the comments just make sense, the writer should at least consider their views. If it's just one reader making a comment, it can probably be ignored. And sometimes, reader comments can lead to a sequel or spin-off story instead of redirecting the main one.
As a reader, I wouldn't want the author to alter the path of their story for me. The excitement comes from not knowing what's going to happen next. If an author changed the path of their narrative because I wanted it to go a certain way, I think it would lose some of that magic.
Sure, I'd feel satisfied with the way the story is going, but it won't sparkle as much as going down a path I've never been down before and don't know where it will lead me.
I think having a singular voice - or, at least, a defined voice - is vital to a compelling story. It's that very particular point of view that makes a story worth reading in the first place, and gives it meaning beyond simply a sequence of Things That Happen.
I wouldnt want the pilot of the plane asking me how to land it, and i think the same goes for story. By opening the book/starting the serial/returning each week, the reader is putting a level of trust in the writer to get them to the end of the journey. :)
Then again, the cabin staff do come and check on passengers throughout the flight. :P
True! A pilot asking us how to land is a dangerous question. Nevertheless, I can understand an author who wants to involve the reader even more in the process if it applies. Some readers want an extra behind-the-scenes look at how things are crafted, while others just want to enjoy the final piece in peace. It really depends on the relationship and bond an author has built with their audience. Their level of trust and openness in sharing the process and sometimes those moments of doubts and deserts in writing.
Personally, I listen to the feedback to some extent, it is always good to know when you hooked them and when they lost interest. I tend to hold on to my gut feeling all along and adjust when needed. Letting that feedback sink in, but not overpower me.
I think having a couple trusted beta readers is great for this! A writing group, writing friends, etc. As for the behind the scenes, this is true and I like sharing these things with readers, but i have to do it after the thing is made. When I'm writing, i'm still working things out and need to find my way. For me, if I open the office door to everyone while I'm actively writing, i can get really lost in the weeds trying to make everyone happy and forget what it was I was trying to acomplish by telling the story in the first place!
Indeed. If it's too early and you are not fully infused in it, it is easy to get lost in so many opinions. I do the same and its a balance I guess. That alone time is quite precious though!
This may be a perpetually online conversation that’s happening, but on different social media platforms (TikTok and Threads specifically), there have been a rash of readers making demands of authors regarding what content they should and should not include in their books, whether applied broadly or addressed to specific authors. This runs the gamut from not using certain words to how an author markets, and it’s frustrating. This is more than likely a vocal minority, but it’s still frustrating nonetheless to come across these posts in spaces “authors aren’t allowed to be in” yet being spoken directly to and expected to effect that “advice.” A common response authors get when begging not to be tagged in more negative reviews is something to the effect of “if you can’t take the criticism, how are you going to get better?” And this goes back to authors being pulled kicking and screaming into reader spaces (reviews), being expected to remain silent, and take away feedback from a random person on the internet. The access to authors, for some, has started to swing too far.
That’s not to say authors can’t pick up feedback in their reviews and apply it to future books. That’s entirely their prerogative to do. It’s the demands and the expectation that we comply that’s exhausting. Even in serial form, that story is still YOURS. The chapter that you post is then your readers’ to read and react to, but like TV of old, a poor response to an episode or a viewer’s response to a character doing something they don’t like doesn’t alter the course of the story. Readers are passive participants even in serial format. If a writer wants to alter their story based on reader feedback, again, their prerogative. But that story isn’t bespoke to them. It’s bespoke to YOU and they get the benefit of enjoying it too.
That's interesting! I've not encountered that kind of reader (fortunately). My experiences with readers have always been very positive and rewarding. There's been speculation of where a story is going, but never in the framing of actual demands.
No writer worth his or her salt should bother with, read or listen to feedback on their writing, unless they know and respect the person giving it. Yes, all writers need and should value professional, constructive criticism. That is simply not going to be found from random readers' feedback, no matter how well meant.
But, who, in their right mind, would welcome a stranger invited into their house to criticise the way they lived, furnished the place, or shared their life with? You'd throw them out instantly.
"Loved your book, Mr Crichton, but why don't you consider historical fiction without the science fiction crap?"
I've always thought that with critics, as well: the opinion of a random critic doesn't mean much to me. Whereas a critic I've followed for years, and have a good sense of their tastes and personality, is far more useful. Mark Kermode, for example, is a film critic I always pay attention to - I don't always agree with him, but because I know what HE prioritises in a good film, I can translate his opinion to my own tastes.
Same goes for readers, as you've described. The more I know a reader, the more useful their comments become.
Great analogy!
I should have added that I always enjoy Simon's wide-ranging debates on writers and writing. It's a lonely calling, and one where the craft can always be honed to make it more accessible for the benefit of all. Sharing experiences between other writers, I find, valuable.
Readers and reading is, I believe, an entirely different matter. As a reader I have tastes that preclude many genres. Simply can't abide some of them. That, of course, is my problem.
It also strikes me, as a new and enthusiastic listener to well narrated audiobooks, that not all readers perhaps have the ability to hear the voices and nuances the writer might have had in mind. I know I have been surprised how certain novels have come alive for me, in audiobook form. In other words, I need to brush up on the way I read other people's work.
That's interesting! I've not got on with audiobooks yet, as I find it very difficult to listen to something without DOING something else - at which point I lose concentration. Not a problem with non-fiction radio or podcasts, as I can dip in and out slightly without losing my way. Fiction requires proper concentration, though, and my brain doesn't seem well-designed for that.
Which is annoying!
My hyperactive, multi-tasking, younger friends also find that they invariably do something else as they listen to audiobooks. I have reached an advanced age where I am quite content to while away many hours each day reading a book or scouring YouTube for a free audible offering.
I would make two further points: many audiobooks are rushed jobs, poorly narrated. Many I've tried I discard in minutes. But I was hooked, a few years back, by two brilliant narrators. The first, Gareth Armstrong, does an incredible job for the Maigret novels; Sean Barrett, my second narrating star, brings alive for me the brilliant Mick Herron novels featuring Jackson Lamb, and also does justice to Jo Nesbo's work, especially with 'The Son'. Give them a go?
Unlike your household furnishings, writing as being discussed here, is for public consumption. There's a whole profession of writing critics. There are entire university degrees devoted to writing analysis.
Of course, you are right, but I would argue that writing is such a human, individual process that seeking a cross-section of advice about your writing, without permitting the providers with a highly detailed analysis of your entire life, coupled with an explanation of your tastes and literary and commercial aspirations will only confuse not illuminate.
However, one to one advice, over a lengthy period, weeks, not hours, could certainly be helpful, provided you got on with the person giving it, and he or she was a truly independent publishing expert steeped in examining drafts.
Hmm. That's not how the real world of publishing works, nor, I most professional writers.
On Substack, it would be rare to see people giving negative feedback, let alone plot suggestions. I think most people only comment if they have something encouraging to say. Otherwise they keep their reactions to themselves. It's not really an environment for giving a critique of the person's writing skills.
As a writer and book editor for over twenty years, and having helped scores of aspiring writers achieve success, I can only say that the 'real world of publishing' you describe is not one I have encountered. We shall have to agree to disagree.
And who mentioned 'plot suggestions' or 'negative feedback'? Certainly not me. Not my style. Never helpful.
All of my comments are within the context of Simon's post.
I still hold that no reader needs or wants intimate and life time information about a writer so as to be able to form an opinion about a writer's efforts.
As a writer, you have to stick to the thing that you mean to say, but you also have to adapt the way that you say it to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, or, at least, the audience you are interested in reaching. So, yes, its is worth listening to reader feedback as it touches the how, but not as it touches the what.
Nicely put!
Yes, very well said.
I listen to my first readers, but only on very specific things. For example, I might say, ‘Did you like this particular character?’ or ‘Did their decision to do whatever seem consistent you you?’ or even ‘Did you see such and such coming?’ But as for the more general thing and my the larger readership? You can’t really. For everyone that thinks one thing there’ll be someone passionately advocating for the opposite. You can’t dilute your own vision by trying to please everyone.
Yeah, the narrative whiplash would be painful and confusing if we tried to please every reader. And as has been pointed out elsewhere, readers don't necessarily know what's best for the story OR for them, because they're not holding all the cards.
I sometimes ask readers to rate which topic they'd rather hear about, from a list I've put together (i.e., the choice they have isn't infinite, rather a selection of things I've said I'm happy to write about). And sometimes if I've had specific positive feedback (e.g., they loved the title, or found a topic particularly interesting) I ask them to dig into that a little more so that I can try to embody that in future posts. But I don't ever ask them for specific direction in fiction pieces, and I don't ever change my plan according to feedback (except for looking back over what seems to have resonated, from the data, and use that to plan the next quarter). Hope that makes sense!
I like that idea a lot, and have thought about doing some form of that myself.
This is something I do think about, especially now as I'm actually releasing chapters of my latest serial DEPARTURES long before I have the novel complete and everything figured out. I agree with what M.E. Rothwell said below - as readers it's not our job to know what we want when we want it. The act of reading is all about discovery and surprise. From a writer's perspective, I love getting the immediate feedback as I drop new chapters. While Substack is a very friendly place and no one's going to be critical in a comment, you still can judge how well it's been received by the volume of comments and the energy and specificity within them. I find it's just enough of a barometric reading for me to know what elements and themes are resonating with my readers so I can lean into them a bit more. Thanks for the great question, Simon!
I write the stories that come to me and I wouldn’t be interested in writing something just because a reader wanted the story to go a certain way. As a reader, I want no input. I want the delight of following a writer’s story through all of its surprises and twists.
This is fascinating (and others have said similarly). I wonder if this touches upon why AI-generated writing and art remains generally unappealing? As a reader we want to be surprised and have that connection with a writer, and be surprised by their point of view. It's in discovering that which we didn't even know we wanted.
No.
Reader feedback should be welcome to gauge reactions to a story, but not to directly shape it. Write what you mean to write.
💯
These are all such thoughtful comments! Dare I say they illustrate the point that reader feedback can be invaluable. I think of reader comments as an ongoing, evolving workshop — especially the readers here who are mostly writers themselves. Comments are often specific and constructive, which I’ve used to a) improve my readers’ experience and b) give them more of what they enjoy the most. I’m with the commenter who said feedback helps with the how, but not the what.
That is an interesting quirk, actually: that readers here tend to also be writers. Plus readers of serial fiction are by necessity somewhat interested in the nuts and bolts of how a story is told - otherwise they'd just stick with buying books the normal way.
I'm generalising a bit, but I'd wager that the particular readers who happen to find their way to my extremely niche online serial are going to give a particular type of feedback, which may well be more useful than a casual paperback reader's.
(oh, and yes! I'm always stunned by the quality of discussion that pops up in these threads!)
As a reader, I wouldn't want a writer to alter their story for me... the point is that the writer probably has a plan I haven't considered and part of the fun is finding out what that plan is... I might not agree with it in the end, but I wouldn't want to write the story myself (even if they kill off a favourite character *sob*)--the fun of being a reader is not having control and not knowing where things are going.
As a writer, I would stick to my own plan, but I would consider feedback if it was apparent something needed further explanation, clarification or develoment, or if readers wanted to see more of a particular character or element of setting/world building etc. and it wouldn't hurt the overall plot/vision to cater to that.
There's an element there which I hadn't really considered: that sensation, as a reader, of not being in control. There's an inherent risk to allowing yourself to be enveloped by someone else's story. A friction and tension. The same thrill of going on a rollercoaster, where there's danger - but you also know that it's 99% sure to be safe. Characters dying in a book isn't the same as people you know dying in real life. But for that moment, when you're in it, surrounded by it, it can feel equivalent.
And yeah - the moment the reader feels able to influence the outcome, that danger disappears, because they regain control.
(there are, of course, types of storytelling where the 'reader' DOES have control, be it interactive fiction, 'choose your own adventure' or...video games. But those are designed specifically with that structure from the start)
Well, since we're writing for readers, I believe we should take their comments into consideration. If course, it's your work and you're the boss.
There's a far broader take on this: How much attention should literary agents and publishers pay to readers' tastes and opinions? The answer seems obvious, yet most books fail to make a profit. Second-guessing is difficult, but being different is risky. I think the same applies to serial fiction that's prepared in advance. But if you're writing on the fly, testing your audience's preferences as you go, then it's a different author journey. It becomes more about agility than guesswork, at the potential expense of being true to the story you originally devised in your head. Audiences can be fickle, and a small opinionated faction might drive you into a plot or character alleyway you don't want to be in and/or can't write your way out of, whilst alienating a silent but attentive majority. But perhaps success depends on the writers psychology, the old split between pantser and plotter, the known and the deep.
This comment has made my brain whirr.
In a good way, I hope, given it's a little early in the day.
Deadpool & Wolverine was awesome. So no, fan service is not always a bad thing. It is, like most things, a totally legitimate ingredient in fiction, depending on what it your fiction is aiming to do. And that's the question you need to answer before indulging yourself.
As to paying attention to reader feedback, again it depends. Pandering is out, writing for an audience instead of writing for yourself is out, taking onboard constructive criticism and removing howlers they've spotted is definitely out. Taking a particular direction because readers suggested it, even if you like their idea, is sketchy, because readers are readers, not collaborators. But pay attention by all means, just know when to heed it and when to not.
From a writer's perspective, I see three tiers to this relationship:
1) Critique group: fellow authors with broad experience and a nuanced eye, drilling down on a scene to both praise, eviscerate and everything in between.
2) Beta readers: absorbing a whole novel, setting it within a genre context and their own experience - personal and literary. Providing structural and plot opinions, but especially character impressions.
3) Commercial readership: feeding off the cultural and marketing contexts, finding relevance, finding their tribe, feeling a connection with the world you've built and the characters you've brought to life. Wanting to be with you on the journey you've set out on. Or not - and telling the world why.
I love feedback as it helps me fix little plot problems.
While I might not change the current story due to feedback, there's no telling when I could take that and incorporate it into another story.
I think it depends on how far off track they want to go. I did listen to people when they said that X character was far more appealing than the two main characters. They were right and that X character was developed more and became an intrical part of the future world.
I've avoided this quandary by only publishing short stories.
However, I finally started on a serial this month, so I'll see what happens. I hope I'll be able to stick with my original vision. You can't please everybody, after all.
I love it when readers comment and, unlike many, I love it when they make suggestions. Some of my favourite writing has been done by authors cooperating, and some of my funnest writing has been done in reaction to readers.
I write what I want to read. And I believe my writing has improved because I stopped listening to strangers and started listening to myself when it comes to my work. The only time I take consideration of criticism about my work is when I actively seek it out with alpha, beta, or gamma readers. But if it’s a random stranger sharing their two cents? Means nothing to me. You can’t please everyone so why not focus on pleasing myself?
My serials are finished products that have been beta-battle tested. I approach readers as an audience looking to be entertained. There’s nothing wrong with serializing on the go, if you communicate that, but I think readers should know they’re handling unfinished goods. Some people will love that, others will be turned off by a work that isn’t ready.
Oh yeah, it's important to make sure people know what they're getting into. For me, the whole point is having the story form up in public, and that's specifically part of the appeal to readers as well.
It's the same with a television show: you know going in that they haven't produced every episode, and that there's an inherent risk to engaging with it. But that's also part of the enjoyment, especially when everything aligns.
If readers give me advice (at all), I take it. I can't have a career without them.
If you ask for feedback, don't respond to what somebody says, but to how it makes you feel. Is there something in your gut that tells you, "damn it. I don't like it, but they're right"?
I love reader comments. I learn a lot from them, like what works and what readers enjoy. I am fortunate to have a few insightful, detailed commentators. I also learn what doesn't work from their silence and lack of likes. Obviously, stand-alone stories and serials are different animals.
I found reader comments especially valuable when I serialized my second Novella on Substack as I wrote it. I solicited and got helpful comments and suggestions, and even helpful corrections like the difference between one and two-humped camels. Plus nautical corrections from a former Navy man and another "historical fiction" writer (the story spent a lot of time on sailing ships in the 18th century.) I am doing the same with the third book in the series which is in progress now.
I take reader suggestions into consideration and find any corrections very helpful. But I stick to my vision for the story. I don't change plot lines, mostly just details. Or some dialog that seems out of character. Which is what the comments usually are about. No one has ever suggested I change the storyline. I think readers would rather let me do the work, there. 🤣
For me, having readers provide a kind of temperature gauge during the writing process is invaluable. It's an indicator as to whether I'm on track. I can't imagine writing an entire novel in private, not knowing if it's any good, and only finding out at the end of that process, after several drafts, edits, and rejections.
The excitement is in the creation, for me, and I really enjoy having people along for the ride. I think that's a big part of it for them, too. It's part of what makes a serial unique and exciting, rather than just a very slow, gated book.
I agree. An audience is a good motivator and gauge. It is also more fun for me. Of course, it doesn't appeal to everyone.
Should they listen? Yup.
Should they always apply what they've heard? Nope.
I may have longer opinions.
Deadpool & Wolverine was a hot mess occasionally featuring Hugh Jackman talking about what sounds like a much better movie.
I don't write serialized fiction so I'll answer this in terms of someone who writes novels that are released in whole. Personally, I like to get reader feedback. In my current work in progress, Electromagnetic Assault, I have it out to 15 beta readers, 4 of which are multi-published authors. Yes, that will be a lot of feedback to deal with!
My attitude toward reader feedback is to NEVER take anything personally. It's just feedback from a single person. What I look for when I get feedback are two things:
1. Am I getting the same feedback from multiple people? If yes, then it's probably an issue I should deal with.
2. Do I agree with the feedback and feel a change is required? If feedback hits both of these criteria, I usually deal with it. If it hits neither, then I usually don't act on it.
One piece of writing advice I read years ago was that if a reader points out an issue, then it's likely a problem, however, don't follow their advice on how to fix the issue. That's up to the writer or the writer working with a professional editor. At the end of the day, it's my story told my way and not a story written by a committee, no matter how well meaning their feedback. Not every reader will love my work and that's OK.
Yeah, any reader who isn't also a writer (or someone who has studied literature, or is a critic, etc) is likely to notice that SOMETHING is wrong, but it's going to be difficult to analyse and explain what it is. Your point about listening to the problem, but not the suggested advice/solution is spot on.
A good critic (or editor) isn't paid to have an opinion: they're paid to be able to EXPLAIN that opinion, in a way that is useful for other people.
I think writers should work to surprise readers by subverting expectations/genre conventions when they can, but that it's absolutely fine to listen to reader feedback and make slight adjustments as you progress further into a series, as long as it makes sense for the story. I also think it's very hard to stick to an original plan for a story, and that getting down into the nitty-gritty of writing almost always leads to the story evolving in ways you would not expect. That's part of the fun of writing!
Fan service, done right and in moderation, can be great. I thought D&W stuck the landing on fan service, especially as someone who grew up with all those 20th Century Fox Marvel movies.
Yeah, I was mostly very pleased with D&W. It's incredibly silly, but there's only really one totally superfluous (if excellent) cameo. The rest of the revived characters all have a story or character reason to be there (even if the reason is primarily "this will be funny").
Feedback is feedback, whether it comes from readers, workshops, writer groups, or friends. I think it's worth evaluating it individually regardless of where it comes from.
I think fan service can be fun. I enjoyed Deadpool and Wolverine on many levels, including as a reminder that this stuff is supposed to be fun.
The choice is still ultimately up to the writer as to what to do with the feedback, after all!
I’m sure I recall TV series where a minor character was made more prominent because of audience feedback but as a writer I’d probably only go that way if I already wanted to boost that character but had been afraid I was being self-indulgent. I would be wary of specific feedback because what if I think that’s a better idea than where I was originally taking the story? I could use the idea, credit the reader and that might be nice for them, but is it still my story? Would that open others up to suggesting twists etc and would they be offended if you didn’t use them? Very interesting thread though Simon, thanks for asking the question.
I think relinquishing credit to readers would be a slipper slope.
I did have a character in my first serial who was supposed to be in a couple of chapters. I really enjoyed writing him, and then readers responded really well - the next thing I knew, he was the second lead. In that instance it was an inkling I already had, that I wanted to keep him around, and the reader response helped to confirm what I was already thinking.
As a playwright I usually have talkbacks following readings and I always listen closely. Obviously you don’t respond to everything. Only if it’s meaningful or if you hear the same issue a number of times but I consider it useful.
It depends on the piece, the amount of confidence you have about it, and who is critiquing it. I've blithely ignored feedback about a story, submitted it, and had it published. I've had critiques that just show the person wasn't reading attentively. I've had feedback that pointed out things which hadn't occurred to me. This last case has sometimes led to a better version. In general, I listen to everyone because even when I don't agree, it gives me an inkling of what readers are thinking.
If writers are creating a product that they need to succeed in the market, then they should understand that market and then ensure they have market-fit. This doesn't mean taking readers' advice, but tracking metrics and "provoking" feedback (in the form of engagement metrics, not advice), then analyze that data as a professional product designer whose product happens to be writing.
If writers are creating art, then be like Rick Rubin: ignore your audience. Don't listen to them. Their user experience is better for you writing what you want to write, what you enjoy, what you want to make. It'll just be harder finding the audience.
The piece has already been written, so why would readers offer advice on what to do, or what should have been done, with the story?
Does anyone actually provide this sort of feedback?
I didn't really mean direct "you should do it like this" comments. More the natural theorising that readers do while they're going through a story. The endless "what ifs".
Hmm, Chuck.P does exactly that, a regular highlight of his Substack, and it's the most valuable and fascination feedback, as well as providing solid craft insights for any writer.
Another hmm, do people really think 'what if' a lot when reading, do they redo plots or characters in their head, thus constantly taking themselves out of the story? I suspect that what you're calling natural theorizing is the ordinary like and dislike reactions to a story that already exists. But maybe you read differently!