Watching this the first time round in my twenties was mind-blowing. I'd seen "long arc" episodes on other shows but I'd been severely disappointed by them for a bunch of reasons - this was before the most spectacular examples of "let's foreshadow something mysterious we don't yet have any idea of how to explain in a satisfying way" which can get a story into trouble when the writers can't come up with anything truly great - looking firmly at you, Lost, and also to a certain extent you, Battlestar Galactica. But it was also well before Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul nailed that approach...
So there was a confidence here, a feeling that 'holy hell, JMS *does* know where he's going...doesn't he?' that was a little intoxicating, if slightly worrying, because what if he was just unusually good at pulling ideas out of his backside? But of course he had an actual plan. (Unlike the Cylons.)
And yes, I don't think we'd see Babylon 5 built under our current government. Deporting refugees to Z'ha'dum seems more their thing. (/politics)
The scenes with Sinclair, Ivanova and Garibaldi at breakfast, and the fasten/zip conversation are the two most genuinely funny bits of the series. Moreover, they truly cement the friendship of Sinclair and Garibaldi. We KNOW they're friends because they've had a few scenes where they talk about being friends, but seeing them team up to prank Ivanova or discuss something completely banal gives us a "show, not tell." Just in how Garibaldi picks up on Sinclair's prank, and how Sinclair leaves Garibaldi to face the music.
Simon chose a Zathras line for the top of the article, but, as we see Zathras again (not a spoiler - does anyone think we WON'T see the other side of the situation?), I'm a bit surprised Simon didn't go with fasten/zip!
Joshua Cox - Tech 2/Lt. Corwin must have been offered his season 2 contract by the producers at this point. He's cut his mullet down to something more military.
Jim Johnston does a nice job with the episode. He picks good camera angles, and it's a nice touch how all the B4 staff are either unshaven, dirty, or both. This tells us their 4 year time jump took a couple of days in relative-time. With the flash forwards/backwards, it sells the stress. Kent Broadhurst does pretty well at portraying haunted. Only one minor scene where he doesn't quite hit it.
I'm gonna call out JMS for a bit of sloppy writing... Alpha 7's scratching "B4" on his harness buckle is a classic trope, but, if his computer is able to plot and execute a return to B5 his audio log recorder is capable of recording the words "It's Babylon 4!" Especially as everyone *immediately* leaps to the right conclusion.
Speaking of Alpha 7 - he was Sinclair's and Garibaldi's wingman in "Midnight on the Firing Line," and Ivanova's wingman in "Believers" and "Signs and Portents." bye, Alpha 7. You'll be replaced with someone useless.
Zathras is always wonderful. The untimely passing of actor Tim Choate was a tragedy. Even back in the day Zathras was an instant fan favorite and instantly quoted.
So, what happened to Babylon 4? Sinclair, Delenn, Zathras and others pull it through time to use as a base. One mystery solved, several more set up. Simon discussed how the episode works despite not explaining anything. Well, it DOES explain one thing. That does give some closure... While audaciously setting the hook for the future.
One assumes they went back to 2010, and picked up a HAL-9000 to use.
Speaking of closure, Delenn's B-plot also gives some sense of closure. We're given hints of why she's been on B5, she's offered a promotion, she turns it down, we're told this may cost her her position, she's given a triluminary, and she wistfully says she will never again stand in the Grey Council chamber. That's a full beginning-middle-end, even while leaving future mystery. Yet that plot feels like it has a resolution, which keeps the episode from being a full tease.
The B5 construction timeline seems a bit short, but... JMS has addressed this elsewhere, and we have a few answers. 1) B5 was half the size of the other stations. 2) B5 was constructed using some salvaged materials from the other four stations, 2a) and some standardized prefab units. 3) B5 was rushed into operation BEFORE it was fully constructed. The 1997 re-issue of "The Gathering" obscures this point because most of its CG is pulled from later episodes, but, in the pilot B5's cobra bays are under construction (ok, they hadn't been put on the CG model, but go with me on this). 4) The Minbari helped. 5) sections of B5 remain unfinished - like much of Brown Sector.
Of course the other side of the story was intended for season 5. Being in season 3 likely had a lot to do with Michael O' Hare's mental health. He was able to work again, he got a two - parter to keep his union insurance going and give him recent footage for his reel. JMS will do a more-or-less perfect job with his jiggery-pokery.
In "War Without End" fans point at Zathras' "You are the one who was/is/will be" as a sloppy retcon... Yet, if one looks at the archive at the "Lurker's Guide," JMS says of "Babylon Squared," "Zathras looks Sinclair in the eyes and says" NOT the One." I suspect in the original outline Sinclair was still the "One who was" (Valen), DELENN the "One who is," and *someone else* the "One who will be." Certainly at the time B2 aired JMS was trying to say Sinclair wasn't "The One."
Ivanova says, "Next time this happens, I'm going, Garibaldi is staying." Exactly what happens.
Of course the pranking Ivanova and fasten/zip discusses in non-Spoiler... There's the friendship which makes Sinclair and Garibaldi not having scenes together in WWE so tragic.
Otherwise, the aged Sinclair and voice of Delenn do a really good job of leading the viewer to expect B4 is moving farther forwards. Good misdirection. No one would have expected B4 to go backwards so the prior Shadow War would go well enough to reduce Shadow resources to the point where they don't win the NEXT war. If mainline B5 only has one time travel tale it's plotted out well enough to make sense... Unlike SOME franchises (MCU/Avengers Endgame/Loki, etc)
Some really nice foreshadowing in this episode. The poor B4 worker shooting at Sinclair and Garibaldi screaming about monsters no one can see, and Garibaldi's flash forward where a bulkhead is bent in by something we don't see... Well, Shadows can cloak!
Of course we'll see yet another take on this in "The Road Home," but I've only seen that once, unlike the main series which I've seen maybe a dozen times, I can't really comment on how well that ties in. "Road Home" was largely set in the universes anyway.
Of course Babylon Squared goes out of its way to avoid showing half-human Delenn. For those with the movies, this is part why I argue "In the Beginning" should be watched between seasons 1 and 2. "ItB" before the pilot/s1 gives away the Battle of the Line, the Soul of Valen, and the transformation of Delenn. Viewing "ItB" between s1/s2 gives away the Soul of Valen one episode before the series does, Delenn's hair two episodes before the series does (but lets the viewer wonder what happens in the chrysalis before watching "ItB"), while letting the viewer experience the season 1 mysteries AS mysteries. Then gives you a great introduction to Sheridan just before he enters the narrative.
In non-spoilers I discussed Delenn's B-plot giving a sense of closure with her refusing to take Dukhat's place, being told she could be removed from the council, and her line about, "I will never again stand in the council chambers." That's a bit misleading, as she's not actually kicked out of the council until mid season two.
There's some sloppy scripting in the Grey Council scenes in Babylon Squared, which we'll have to put down to JMS needing to get out exposition. The council asks Delenn why she's on Babylon 5 keeping track of the humans. Um... Because Sinclair has the Soul of Valen, and you all discussed Delenn keeping an eye on him? (c.f. "In the Beginning," and maybe s4's "Atonement")
That said, the two Grey Council featured in Babylon Squared are NOT featured in "In the Beginning," so lets be charitable and assume they joined the council within the last ten cycles and don't know everything?
Oh. For the B5 drinking game of drinking for actors returning for 2nd, 3rd, etc parts. Drink for Mark Hendrickson's Grey Council member. Oh, he's the same one from "Signs and Portents," but his Narn is his first role.
Poor Alpha Seven, our now dead recurring pilot. If he hadn't been killed off, when the suits at WB insisted on a recurring Starfury pilot, he could have gotten the role. Instead we get Keffer, who is on no one's list of compelling Babylon 5 characters. We'll talk about Keffer in the future... Especially when we catch up to "GROPOS," where one moment will establish Jerry Doyle as an actor occasionally capable of great subtlety, while Robert Russler is not. I've seen Russler in other shows/movies and he's always pretty terrible. Only thing Keffer does which is notable is die in a face melting way.
I feel I'm forgetting something. There may be addendum.
I maintain the "Master Timeline" JMS prefers over the broadcast order is still "wrong." It's still about Lise Hampton.
If B-2 comes before Voice pt 1/2 then the flashback to Lise becomes a little bit of mystery answered in the next story. As it is we know Garibaldi left her on Mars, has felt bad about it for years, contacts her and finds out she's married. End of storyline.
So having the flashback AFTER the resolution - it doesn't add anything to that story. It's just...a thing we see. Nice set, mind you.
We'll talk more about flashbacks in the Spoiler chat.
Watching this the first time round in my twenties was mind-blowing. I'd seen "long arc" episodes on other shows but I'd been severely disappointed by them for a bunch of reasons - this was before the most spectacular examples of "let's foreshadow something mysterious we don't yet have any idea of how to explain in a satisfying way" which can get a story into trouble when the writers can't come up with anything truly great - looking firmly at you, Lost, and also to a certain extent you, Battlestar Galactica. But it was also well before Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul nailed that approach...
So there was a confidence here, a feeling that 'holy hell, JMS *does* know where he's going...doesn't he?' that was a little intoxicating, if slightly worrying, because what if he was just unusually good at pulling ideas out of his backside? But of course he had an actual plan. (Unlike the Cylons.)
And yes, I don't think we'd see Babylon 5 built under our current government. Deporting refugees to Z'ha'dum seems more their thing. (/politics)
Non - spoiler:
The scenes with Sinclair, Ivanova and Garibaldi at breakfast, and the fasten/zip conversation are the two most genuinely funny bits of the series. Moreover, they truly cement the friendship of Sinclair and Garibaldi. We KNOW they're friends because they've had a few scenes where they talk about being friends, but seeing them team up to prank Ivanova or discuss something completely banal gives us a "show, not tell." Just in how Garibaldi picks up on Sinclair's prank, and how Sinclair leaves Garibaldi to face the music.
Simon chose a Zathras line for the top of the article, but, as we see Zathras again (not a spoiler - does anyone think we WON'T see the other side of the situation?), I'm a bit surprised Simon didn't go with fasten/zip!
Joshua Cox - Tech 2/Lt. Corwin must have been offered his season 2 contract by the producers at this point. He's cut his mullet down to something more military.
Jim Johnston does a nice job with the episode. He picks good camera angles, and it's a nice touch how all the B4 staff are either unshaven, dirty, or both. This tells us their 4 year time jump took a couple of days in relative-time. With the flash forwards/backwards, it sells the stress. Kent Broadhurst does pretty well at portraying haunted. Only one minor scene where he doesn't quite hit it.
I'm gonna call out JMS for a bit of sloppy writing... Alpha 7's scratching "B4" on his harness buckle is a classic trope, but, if his computer is able to plot and execute a return to B5 his audio log recorder is capable of recording the words "It's Babylon 4!" Especially as everyone *immediately* leaps to the right conclusion.
Speaking of Alpha 7 - he was Sinclair's and Garibaldi's wingman in "Midnight on the Firing Line," and Ivanova's wingman in "Believers" and "Signs and Portents." bye, Alpha 7. You'll be replaced with someone useless.
Zathras is always wonderful. The untimely passing of actor Tim Choate was a tragedy. Even back in the day Zathras was an instant fan favorite and instantly quoted.
So, what happened to Babylon 4? Sinclair, Delenn, Zathras and others pull it through time to use as a base. One mystery solved, several more set up. Simon discussed how the episode works despite not explaining anything. Well, it DOES explain one thing. That does give some closure... While audaciously setting the hook for the future.
One assumes they went back to 2010, and picked up a HAL-9000 to use.
Speaking of closure, Delenn's B-plot also gives some sense of closure. We're given hints of why she's been on B5, she's offered a promotion, she turns it down, we're told this may cost her her position, she's given a triluminary, and she wistfully says she will never again stand in the Grey Council chamber. That's a full beginning-middle-end, even while leaving future mystery. Yet that plot feels like it has a resolution, which keeps the episode from being a full tease.
The B5 construction timeline seems a bit short, but... JMS has addressed this elsewhere, and we have a few answers. 1) B5 was half the size of the other stations. 2) B5 was constructed using some salvaged materials from the other four stations, 2a) and some standardized prefab units. 3) B5 was rushed into operation BEFORE it was fully constructed. The 1997 re-issue of "The Gathering" obscures this point because most of its CG is pulled from later episodes, but, in the pilot B5's cobra bays are under construction (ok, they hadn't been put on the CG model, but go with me on this). 4) The Minbari helped. 5) sections of B5 remain unfinished - like much of Brown Sector.
I guess they came up with some impressive breakthroughs in 3D printing in 2255?
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Of course the other side of the story was intended for season 5. Being in season 3 likely had a lot to do with Michael O' Hare's mental health. He was able to work again, he got a two - parter to keep his union insurance going and give him recent footage for his reel. JMS will do a more-or-less perfect job with his jiggery-pokery.
In "War Without End" fans point at Zathras' "You are the one who was/is/will be" as a sloppy retcon... Yet, if one looks at the archive at the "Lurker's Guide," JMS says of "Babylon Squared," "Zathras looks Sinclair in the eyes and says" NOT the One." I suspect in the original outline Sinclair was still the "One who was" (Valen), DELENN the "One who is," and *someone else* the "One who will be." Certainly at the time B2 aired JMS was trying to say Sinclair wasn't "The One."
Ivanova says, "Next time this happens, I'm going, Garibaldi is staying." Exactly what happens.
Of course the pranking Ivanova and fasten/zip discusses in non-Spoiler... There's the friendship which makes Sinclair and Garibaldi not having scenes together in WWE so tragic.
Otherwise, the aged Sinclair and voice of Delenn do a really good job of leading the viewer to expect B4 is moving farther forwards. Good misdirection. No one would have expected B4 to go backwards so the prior Shadow War would go well enough to reduce Shadow resources to the point where they don't win the NEXT war. If mainline B5 only has one time travel tale it's plotted out well enough to make sense... Unlike SOME franchises (MCU/Avengers Endgame/Loki, etc)
Some really nice foreshadowing in this episode. The poor B4 worker shooting at Sinclair and Garibaldi screaming about monsters no one can see, and Garibaldi's flash forward where a bulkhead is bent in by something we don't see... Well, Shadows can cloak!
Of course we'll see yet another take on this in "The Road Home," but I've only seen that once, unlike the main series which I've seen maybe a dozen times, I can't really comment on how well that ties in. "Road Home" was largely set in the universes anyway.
Of course Babylon Squared goes out of its way to avoid showing half-human Delenn. For those with the movies, this is part why I argue "In the Beginning" should be watched between seasons 1 and 2. "ItB" before the pilot/s1 gives away the Battle of the Line, the Soul of Valen, and the transformation of Delenn. Viewing "ItB" between s1/s2 gives away the Soul of Valen one episode before the series does, Delenn's hair two episodes before the series does (but lets the viewer wonder what happens in the chrysalis before watching "ItB"), while letting the viewer experience the season 1 mysteries AS mysteries. Then gives you a great introduction to Sheridan just before he enters the narrative.
In non-spoilers I discussed Delenn's B-plot giving a sense of closure with her refusing to take Dukhat's place, being told she could be removed from the council, and her line about, "I will never again stand in the council chambers." That's a bit misleading, as she's not actually kicked out of the council until mid season two.
There's some sloppy scripting in the Grey Council scenes in Babylon Squared, which we'll have to put down to JMS needing to get out exposition. The council asks Delenn why she's on Babylon 5 keeping track of the humans. Um... Because Sinclair has the Soul of Valen, and you all discussed Delenn keeping an eye on him? (c.f. "In the Beginning," and maybe s4's "Atonement")
That said, the two Grey Council featured in Babylon Squared are NOT featured in "In the Beginning," so lets be charitable and assume they joined the council within the last ten cycles and don't know everything?
Oh. For the B5 drinking game of drinking for actors returning for 2nd, 3rd, etc parts. Drink for Mark Hendrickson's Grey Council member. Oh, he's the same one from "Signs and Portents," but his Narn is his first role.
Poor Alpha Seven, our now dead recurring pilot. If he hadn't been killed off, when the suits at WB insisted on a recurring Starfury pilot, he could have gotten the role. Instead we get Keffer, who is on no one's list of compelling Babylon 5 characters. We'll talk about Keffer in the future... Especially when we catch up to "GROPOS," where one moment will establish Jerry Doyle as an actor occasionally capable of great subtlety, while Robert Russler is not. I've seen Russler in other shows/movies and he's always pretty terrible. Only thing Keffer does which is notable is die in a face melting way.
I feel I'm forgetting something. There may be addendum.
Non spoiler addendum.
I maintain the "Master Timeline" JMS prefers over the broadcast order is still "wrong." It's still about Lise Hampton.
If B-2 comes before Voice pt 1/2 then the flashback to Lise becomes a little bit of mystery answered in the next story. As it is we know Garibaldi left her on Mars, has felt bad about it for years, contacts her and finds out she's married. End of storyline.
So having the flashback AFTER the resolution - it doesn't add anything to that story. It's just...a thing we see. Nice set, mind you.
We'll talk more about flashbacks in the Spoiler chat.