I loved this show so much I decided to pull a reverse JMS and pull his bridge-crew characters back into Tolkien's world, for a game I was running at the time, using Cubicle 7's ADVENTURES IN MIDDLE-EARTH system:
“It was the dawn of the reign of King Bard, five years after the Battle of Five Armies. The Esgaroth project was a dream given form. It’s a port of call, home away from home for Scholars, Slayers, Wardens, and Wanderers. Two million, five hundred thousand pounds of floating lumber, all alone on the lake. It can be a dangerous place, but it’s our last, best hope for wealth. This is the story of the last of the Esgaroth townships. The year is 2946. The name of the place is Esgaroth 3.”
I remember seeing some of the original episodes way back when; my dad was on an extended business trip in Charlotte, North Carolina and we got to stay with him in the hotel for a bit, and there was a whole block of programming I remember that was just brilliant: B5, Spider-Man, others I don't remember as well. Good times. Unfortunately I didn't catch the whole plot, but it stuck with me (I distinctly remember the line about the Shirley Temple).
I rewatched it once back in 2015, and loved it start to finish. Looking forward to the rewatch!
It's funny how as a kid, especially pre-streaming, you didn't really have any control over what you watched. It was often just whatever happened to be on - which is what made doing a 5-year interconnected plot so risky back in the 90s.
Looking forward to it! I started watching in earnest when it was on Amazon but never managed to finish S5, so I skipped to the end (which had been filmed for S4 anyway). I think Babylon 5 is a fascinating series. I do think in hindsight its serialization qualities have been somewhat exaggerated, with the 'planned all along' thing being more of a narrative rather than a fact. Like, there is proof of the show having had some pretty huge divergences from its first season in part due to the many actor changes that occurred unexpectedly.
Depends how you define it, I suppose. It having a 5 year plan 'all along' is definitely true, but it's ALSO true that it changed along the way. Part of that was due to unavoidable real world stuff (like actors leaving), and some due to the writers having better ideas along the way. I think that's fine. There's no point sticking rigidly to a plan just for the sake of it.
I'm the same with my writing - I have a plan, but if I think of something better during production, I'll happily shift to that. But by having the plan from the start (even if it changes) you can layer in tuff that really resonates and pays off down the line.
Oh, for certain. I just feel that part of the way the show had been sold over the years by JMS is that it very rigidly stuck to that plan, with contingencies in store for actors leaving even. But that schema doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny.
The thing I've def-ly noted about storytelling is that it's very much an organic process, prone to organic evolution and I like when storytellers admit to that evolution.
Dammit, Simon, I DEMAND you wait until my Blu-rays arrive. Or don't. It's your newsletter.
Could just be the app messing with me (it often does), but, following your links from this week's Triverse, or manually going into Account Settings - this thread doesn't show up for me at all, leaving me no way to subscribe. Only the direct link to this thread is working for me.
I'm out of town. Maybe on my laptop, Substack will be kinder than the phone.
You say here B5 "may" have paved the way for other long term shows. No doubt about it. JMS has often discussed how Ronald D Moore, JJ Abrams, the producers of "Heroes," et al all came to pick his brain when developing and pitching their shows. While certain prime time shows may have been somewhat serialized before, those were, at most, single season arcs. B5 still remains unique in having a five year arc. And there's s1 stuff paying off in s5(!)
I don't think missing the spin-off films will hurt. "In the Beginning," (The prequel) should actually be watched between season 1 and 2 (preserving the s1 mystery, but letting ItB serve as a Sheridan intro before he joins the show).
Seriously, don't watch "In the Beginning" first. It really really works better between s1 and s2, otherwise ItB spoils Sinclair's s1 mystery and blows the mystery of the Chrysalis. Placing it between s1 and s2 has those spoilers coming just before their initial explanations in the first two episodes of s2.
"Thirdspace" is fun, but it's a one off side story and it's hard to place. If you try to break down the Timeline it's really hard to figure out where it fits. Somewhere around ep 407? "River of Souls?" set after season 5, so it goes between "Objects at Rest," and "Sleeping in Light." but AFTER "The Road Home," as that movie begins at the end of "Objects at Rest."
"A Call to Arms" is after "River of Souls,"
All this movie Timeline stuff is pointless for your blog - as you're only covering the main series, but are for the benefit of possible comment readers who may not know the show, may decide they have interest, and see the Movie DVDs online.
I'll have to check the Lurker's Guide episode order. Not sure how much it differs from original broadcast. That's said there's not too many reschedule glitches. Not like "Crusade," where something ends up used for 10 episodes before its invention.
When are you blu-rays arriving? And what the heck is wrong with Irish post?
Thanks for the summary of the movies. In The Beginning is the only one that really contributes, I think, and is definitely worth a watch. I don't think it exists in a decent HD format though?
It's not Irish Post (or, at least, not yet). It's Amazon. Despite Ireland being Amazon's European HQ we don't have an Amazon-dot-IE or a distribution center (Although a distribution center is supposed to open soon), and, with this type of pre-order, they'll fill UK orders first.
Amazon says Dec 13-15, but they also say they haven't dispatched the order yet. 😂
At least things tend to arrive a day or two before estimate. If they say Dec 13-15, then it'll probably actually arrive on the 12th.
You don't have to wait for me. That was a joke.
As far as I know, In the Beginning only exists on DVD. I suspect WB is waiting till the end of the month to see combined pre-sales/December sales of the series box set before deciding on whether not to do the movies and/or Crusade.
Also, A Call to Arms is worth watching. Ok the Beta villain's name is waaay too on the nose, but it's very well done. Then again, I also prefer Evan Chen's music over Christopher Franke's. Apparently a minority view.
Dec 8, 2023·edited Dec 8, 2023Liked by Simon K Jones
I've watched them all at least twice. HOORAY. Despite the sometimes cringey acting (especially early in season 1) (which is more than counteracted by some brilliant performances later, especially any time Londo yells "FAAAHGH!" in exasperation), this show is vastly underrated in so, so, so many ways - not within scifi circles because it is much loved, but outside of it, it doesn't have the same profile as, say, Deep Space 9 - which is a tragedy, considering how groundbreaking it is with telling a single story over multiple seasons, which was so revolutionary at the time. (Spending years to fully pay off certain plot-points? MADNESS.)
Somewhere online, I seem to remember, Straczynski was writing an absolute ton of fascinating behind the scenes production notes for each episode and I remember learning SO MUCH AMAZING STUFF - not sure if you have seen it already, but if not, I'll go hunting.
Yeah, it's always been a bit of a hidden gem, never having the profile over other science fiction shows. I think the cringey/wooden nature of some of season 1 also makes it difficult to get new people into it - you have to wade through a lot to get to the good stuff. In retrospect a lot of season 1 improves massively, but on first view it can be a bit of a slog.
And yes - jmsnews archived all of his stuff from Usernet, and the Lurker's Guide has a ton of BTS per episode.
I'm hoping I've had enough time since my last rewatch to have slightly fresh eyes.
The Lurker's Guide! That was it. I knew you'd be ahead of me... Yes, it took a little while to find its feet, even though the ongoing story itself had so much going on that would pay off spectacularly later. I've dipped in here and there since my last proper watch-through, and the places I've rewatched a one-off episode (the Earth civil war; dodging the Shadow vessel by tricking it into falling into Jupiter; good Londo and G'kar moments) it's really held up on the lore side. Absolutely operatic, all of it, in a sweeping sense. Let's hope JMS is given a shot at doing his own version of a gritty Battlestar remake with it.
JMS wrote a ridiculous amount of online commentary for B5. There's also a company called B5 Books - b5books.com - which published a series of books with EVERY script and writer commentary on every script, as well as a compilation of all JMS's online posts and other stuff (the original 5-year outline, the entire production notebook for "In the Beginning," including storyboards, call sheets, prop/costume lists, etc). I believe at the moment they are doing a re-release of some things. Anyways, I have everything they've put out and it's literally thousands of pages of BTS info. As JMS said on initial publication, "This is as close as you'll ever get to me coming to your house, saying 'this is how it all happened.'"
I loved this show so much I decided to pull a reverse JMS and pull his bridge-crew characters back into Tolkien's world, for a game I was running at the time, using Cubicle 7's ADVENTURES IN MIDDLE-EARTH system:
https://laketownblues.obsidianportal.com/
“It was the dawn of the reign of King Bard, five years after the Battle of Five Armies. The Esgaroth project was a dream given form. It’s a port of call, home away from home for Scholars, Slayers, Wardens, and Wanderers. Two million, five hundred thousand pounds of floating lumber, all alone on the lake. It can be a dangerous place, but it’s our last, best hope for wealth. This is the story of the last of the Esgaroth townships. The year is 2946. The name of the place is Esgaroth 3.”
Ha, amazing!
I remember seeing some of the original episodes way back when; my dad was on an extended business trip in Charlotte, North Carolina and we got to stay with him in the hotel for a bit, and there was a whole block of programming I remember that was just brilliant: B5, Spider-Man, others I don't remember as well. Good times. Unfortunately I didn't catch the whole plot, but it stuck with me (I distinctly remember the line about the Shirley Temple).
I rewatched it once back in 2015, and loved it start to finish. Looking forward to the rewatch!
It's funny how as a kid, especially pre-streaming, you didn't really have any control over what you watched. It was often just whatever happened to be on - which is what made doing a 5-year interconnected plot so risky back in the 90s.
Love Babylon 5! I only watched it a few years ago and am so glad I did. What a great idea to rewatch it.
Love that people are still discovering the show, decades later!
Ooh! One of my favourite shows. I am in 👍
Where did you find that last picture? Fortunately I'm still a little congested or I would have died laughing. Too funny!
Stumbled upon it in an image search. Isn't it amazing?
Love it! Makes you wonder if "da bird" will still be relevant in centuries to come as a defiant gesture.
Looking forward to it! I started watching in earnest when it was on Amazon but never managed to finish S5, so I skipped to the end (which had been filmed for S4 anyway). I think Babylon 5 is a fascinating series. I do think in hindsight its serialization qualities have been somewhat exaggerated, with the 'planned all along' thing being more of a narrative rather than a fact. Like, there is proof of the show having had some pretty huge divergences from its first season in part due to the many actor changes that occurred unexpectedly.
Depends how you define it, I suppose. It having a 5 year plan 'all along' is definitely true, but it's ALSO true that it changed along the way. Part of that was due to unavoidable real world stuff (like actors leaving), and some due to the writers having better ideas along the way. I think that's fine. There's no point sticking rigidly to a plan just for the sake of it.
I'm the same with my writing - I have a plan, but if I think of something better during production, I'll happily shift to that. But by having the plan from the start (even if it changes) you can layer in tuff that really resonates and pays off down the line.
Oh, for certain. I just feel that part of the way the show had been sold over the years by JMS is that it very rigidly stuck to that plan, with contingencies in store for actors leaving even. But that schema doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny.
The thing I've def-ly noted about storytelling is that it's very much an organic process, prone to organic evolution and I like when storytellers admit to that evolution.
Dammit, Simon, I DEMAND you wait until my Blu-rays arrive. Or don't. It's your newsletter.
Could just be the app messing with me (it often does), but, following your links from this week's Triverse, or manually going into Account Settings - this thread doesn't show up for me at all, leaving me no way to subscribe. Only the direct link to this thread is working for me.
I'm out of town. Maybe on my laptop, Substack will be kinder than the phone.
You say here B5 "may" have paved the way for other long term shows. No doubt about it. JMS has often discussed how Ronald D Moore, JJ Abrams, the producers of "Heroes," et al all came to pick his brain when developing and pitching their shows. While certain prime time shows may have been somewhat serialized before, those were, at most, single season arcs. B5 still remains unique in having a five year arc. And there's s1 stuff paying off in s5(!)
I don't think missing the spin-off films will hurt. "In the Beginning," (The prequel) should actually be watched between season 1 and 2 (preserving the s1 mystery, but letting ItB serve as a Sheridan intro before he joins the show).
Seriously, don't watch "In the Beginning" first. It really really works better between s1 and s2, otherwise ItB spoils Sinclair's s1 mystery and blows the mystery of the Chrysalis. Placing it between s1 and s2 has those spoilers coming just before their initial explanations in the first two episodes of s2.
"Thirdspace" is fun, but it's a one off side story and it's hard to place. If you try to break down the Timeline it's really hard to figure out where it fits. Somewhere around ep 407? "River of Souls?" set after season 5, so it goes between "Objects at Rest," and "Sleeping in Light." but AFTER "The Road Home," as that movie begins at the end of "Objects at Rest."
"A Call to Arms" is after "River of Souls,"
All this movie Timeline stuff is pointless for your blog - as you're only covering the main series, but are for the benefit of possible comment readers who may not know the show, may decide they have interest, and see the Movie DVDs online.
I'll have to check the Lurker's Guide episode order. Not sure how much it differs from original broadcast. That's said there's not too many reschedule glitches. Not like "Crusade," where something ends up used for 10 episodes before its invention.
When are you blu-rays arriving? And what the heck is wrong with Irish post?
Thanks for the summary of the movies. In The Beginning is the only one that really contributes, I think, and is definitely worth a watch. I don't think it exists in a decent HD format though?
It's not Irish Post (or, at least, not yet). It's Amazon. Despite Ireland being Amazon's European HQ we don't have an Amazon-dot-IE or a distribution center (Although a distribution center is supposed to open soon), and, with this type of pre-order, they'll fill UK orders first.
Amazon says Dec 13-15, but they also say they haven't dispatched the order yet. 😂
At least things tend to arrive a day or two before estimate. If they say Dec 13-15, then it'll probably actually arrive on the 12th.
You don't have to wait for me. That was a joke.
As far as I know, In the Beginning only exists on DVD. I suspect WB is waiting till the end of the month to see combined pre-sales/December sales of the series box set before deciding on whether not to do the movies and/or Crusade.
Also, A Call to Arms is worth watching. Ok the Beta villain's name is waaay too on the nose, but it's very well done. Then again, I also prefer Evan Chen's music over Christopher Franke's. Apparently a minority view.
I've watched them all at least twice. HOORAY. Despite the sometimes cringey acting (especially early in season 1) (which is more than counteracted by some brilliant performances later, especially any time Londo yells "FAAAHGH!" in exasperation), this show is vastly underrated in so, so, so many ways - not within scifi circles because it is much loved, but outside of it, it doesn't have the same profile as, say, Deep Space 9 - which is a tragedy, considering how groundbreaking it is with telling a single story over multiple seasons, which was so revolutionary at the time. (Spending years to fully pay off certain plot-points? MADNESS.)
Somewhere online, I seem to remember, Straczynski was writing an absolute ton of fascinating behind the scenes production notes for each episode and I remember learning SO MUCH AMAZING STUFF - not sure if you have seen it already, but if not, I'll go hunting.
Yeah, it's always been a bit of a hidden gem, never having the profile over other science fiction shows. I think the cringey/wooden nature of some of season 1 also makes it difficult to get new people into it - you have to wade through a lot to get to the good stuff. In retrospect a lot of season 1 improves massively, but on first view it can be a bit of a slog.
And yes - jmsnews archived all of his stuff from Usernet, and the Lurker's Guide has a ton of BTS per episode.
I'm hoping I've had enough time since my last rewatch to have slightly fresh eyes.
The Lurker's Guide! That was it. I knew you'd be ahead of me... Yes, it took a little while to find its feet, even though the ongoing story itself had so much going on that would pay off spectacularly later. I've dipped in here and there since my last proper watch-through, and the places I've rewatched a one-off episode (the Earth civil war; dodging the Shadow vessel by tricking it into falling into Jupiter; good Londo and G'kar moments) it's really held up on the lore side. Absolutely operatic, all of it, in a sweeping sense. Let's hope JMS is given a shot at doing his own version of a gritty Battlestar remake with it.
JMS wrote a ridiculous amount of online commentary for B5. There's also a company called B5 Books - b5books.com - which published a series of books with EVERY script and writer commentary on every script, as well as a compilation of all JMS's online posts and other stuff (the original 5-year outline, the entire production notebook for "In the Beginning," including storyboards, call sheets, prop/costume lists, etc). I believe at the moment they are doing a re-release of some things. Anyways, I have everything they've put out and it's literally thousands of pages of BTS info. As JMS said on initial publication, "This is as close as you'll ever get to me coming to your house, saying 'this is how it all happened.'"
Would love to read that outline. I've read some summaries but never the actual firsthand source.
I'm in.
"A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles." - Kosh Naranek
I can't wait for the Koshisms! I feel like we should have a dedicated comment thread just for them.
Best Kosh quote gets a six-pack of Zima.
Or perhaps a plate of spoo.